In this episode, USU President Elizabeth Cantwell is joined by author and leadership professor Irshad Manji and Allison Gerrard, the managing director of the Moral Courage College. They emphasize how it is all of our responsibility to build common ground and be better listeners in order to overcome divisiveness.
Full transcript:
Elizabeth Cantwell: Hello and welcome to Future Casting with Utah State. I'm Elizabeth Cantwell, president of USU and the host of this podcast. Yesterday, I moderated the first of what I hope will be many lectures in a new forum on conflict and conflict resolution. Our guests yesterday were Governor Spencer Cox and Irshad Manji, the founder of the Moral Courage College, which teaches people to turn contentious issues into constructive conversations and healthy teamwork. Her latest book is "Don't Label Me: How to Do Diversity Without Inflaming the Culture Wars." And that's what we're here to talk about today. Welcome, Irshad. And Joining her is Allison Gerrard, Managing Director of the Moral Courage College.
Irshad Manji: Thank you, President Cantwell.
Elizabeth Cantwell: We are leaning into I think in this discussion, both the book that you wrote earshot called "Don't label me: how to do diversity without inflaming the culture wars." And Allison, that the really major project that you lead called the moral courage project, or the more courage college. So So let's jump in. I think, and this is really kind of a follow on to the talk that you gave on our campus yesterday, which was incredibly well received. And for me, is a facet of the social component of what it means to future cast, what it means to get us to a better future. So if you could each just sort of talk about very briefly about your background, I think my my audience knows me reasonably well.
Irsahd Manji: Well, thank you, President. So I'm Irshad Manji. I am the founder of Moral Courage College. And this is an organization that teaches people worldwide, how to turn heated issues into healthy conversations and sustained teamwork. And, you know, maybe it's because I'm a middle child, that I learned early on how to take the many tensions in our household and try to turn them into something that was actually, if not positive, then at the very least constructive, informed of the violence at home actually informed my own leadership aspirations as the president of my junior high school, as the President of my high school and then later on, at the many, many sorts of professions that, you know, I dabbled in, and then at this point in my life really kind of coalesced in order to lead something that teaches people, you know, the skills that we believe Allison and I believe, are foundational to the flourishing of any other aspiration, that as a species we have, without being able to develop relationships that heal and that repair anything worthwhile is not going to get off the ground, and any major problem is not going to get solved, because to solve something means that the solution has to sustain and for sustained solutions, you need buy in, which is precisely why you need to learn how to develop, you know, relationships across divides. So you can see that I'm passionate about this work,
Elizabeth Cantwell: We can and I really love the framing the species framing, that the future of our species, in many ways relies on these kinds of social skills. Absolutely.
Allison Gerrard: Well, I've grown up in Utah, I've lived here my whole life, went to high school, Jordan, high school beat digger. You know, I met your shot because I started to notice how politics was coming into every area of life, family life, work life. And the way we were speaking about it was very accusatory, both sides doing this, and I saw a family and relationships break apart. Yes. And I was very concerned, I have a background in psychology and my own work in building communication skills, because I used to have the bad habits of making statements before listening. Because I had practice some of these skills, I was very concerned about how conversations were being held.
So I went looking for a program that I could bring to my personal life, and also some volunteer work I do with Girl Scouts of Utah. And I found moral courage. We have an online course it's only $99. I took that five to six hours to get through and I thought, you're Irshad Manji get something she's able to explain what's going on in the world and what's going on in our own brains and bodies in a way that just is accessible.
It's not overly theoretical, it's applicable and I posted on LinkedIn that I loved this course and just to show you your shot, walks the talk, she reached out and commented on my post and we started a relationship. She sat with me for an hour long conversation, and we started to build this relationship and lucky for me, she was Starting the moral courage project and brought me on to be her Director of Education at that time,
Irshad Manji: I'll tell you why I reached out to Allison. It's not like I can do this with everyone. But it was a time around 2020 actually, when, you know, the murder of George Floyd had led to outrage, rage, and then, you know, diversity becoming all the rage, right? So the fact that here's this woman who posted positively about a countercultural approach, no shaming, no blaming, I said to myself, this is a brave soul. And I need to know who she is. And that was what made me reach out to you. And I remember during the conversation we had saying to myself, Okay, I don't yet have a role for Allison, but she is so unique, I have to create a role for despite some ups and downs, which any partnership will experience, I think, I think it's going really well. And it's
Allison Gerrard: Going great. And just one more thing you said, despite the ups and downs, that's normal of any relationship. And I think we've lost sight that relationships are about rupture and repair. We have a disconnection, how do we come back together, repair that so we can get stronger, I think about it, like a would a muscle exercising a muscle, you can't get stronger physically, unless you have that breakdown, and then take care of yourself to come back and repair relationships are the same way. And instead today, we rupture, and we don't come back from there.
Irshad Manji: I love that word repair, by the way, because you know, when you break it up re pair literally means you bring the two pieces back together. And we have in our own partnership. We've done that, you know, several times. And she's right. It's made us not just more resilient, but actually anti fragile, right? You know, yes, we get stronger as a result of coming back to one another. And using the skills of moral courage that maybe we didn't use or apply in the moment. But then upon reflection, I realized it's not too late. It's not too late.
Elizabeth Cantwell: It's really rarely too late. Because I don't want to lose my my personal bubble on this, I'm going to sort of interject a different question for you earshot, because when I read your book, it took me probably three chapters to grok, the conversation with your rescue dog component, and by that I mean get to an understanding for me of the value of that in the in the in the in the narrative and in the book, but I'm really interested in your own story about why you chose to use your dog to tell the story.
Irshad Manji: Yeah, yeah. So what listeners should know is that don't label me, though it is a substantive book with a ton of research behind it is a conversation between me and my rescue dog, Lily. And there are actually several reasons President Cantwell that I involved Lily this way. One is I wanted to role model what I'm teaching in the book, right. And here's the thing about me, I have many convictions, as Allison knows, and I could easily have lapsed into making this a polemic and argument that would have completely contradicted what I'm trying to teach. But more than that, you know, I grew up as a Muslim. I'm still Muslim, and many Muslims, not all but many of us are told that dogs are haram.
They're forbidden. Why? Because they're nudges. They that's Arabic for contaminated. Dirty. Exactly. And so if you even go near a dog, you know you're flirting with going to hell. Now I'm an independent thinker. And still, I had a hard time shaking off that conditioning. And so at a certain point, a friend of mine said to me, your shed, you've really got to evolve and understand the healing power of dogs. So I adopted the dog that I thought would be, you know, the most controllable, right, a blind old dog as it turns out, Lilly was the sassiest brassy, illustrious, most defiant us and beautifully defined creature I've ever had the pleasure of developing a relationship with and what that told me was a couple of things. One, sure she was blind and old. Those were facts about her. But that doesn't mean that she lived up to the baggage the stereotype of what it means to be blind or old. And second, precisely because she busted those stereotypes.
She taught me how to explain why, even when our primitive brains put labels on one another, it's not enough to know that I'm brown or Allison is white or that you are a woman That is only a starting point, if we really want to respect one another, we've got to engage with one another, to understand the individuality of every sentient being. And that is an insight that a blind old dog gave to me. So the bottom line here is that there is something to learn from every sentient creature.
Elizabeth Cantwell: Well, it's an incredibly effective for me at least approach. Now, maybe it's because I also have a very young but tiny, sassy, very, very independent dog, I would just say, for any of our listeners who read the book, allow that perspective to be part of what you read in the conversation between earshot. And Lily. It's amazing, it's hard. We've talked a couple times about the following. And I, I'm really interested actually, in both of your perspective, I have hugely, it's very important to me to represent for my university community of all the stakeholders that we do not shame. We do not use shaming, it's just been ubiquitous in the academy for hundreds of years, there's so much about things like tenure processes, and I mean, even some teaching historically has been incredibly shame based, and I'm allergic to it. But you also talk about it, both of you have in in ways that I think, allow us to see in ourselves, I mean, shame shaming is such a, it like feels like so much power, when you're doing it. Allow us to see that and move beyond that. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit.
Irshad Manji: Allison is really articulate about this, and at least as passionate as I am. So why don't you respond?
Allison Gerrard: Okay, so I'm going to, I know you brought up shame in the context of the university, I'm going to bring it back to the personal for just a little bit. And you know, we can always translate that to what's happening at the university. But you know, if you think about what our brains want to do, they're trying to ensure our survival. So what they want to do is control the people and things in the environment that feels good.
If I have control, then I am safe. And I think a lot of times, shame is used to gain control over another, it can come from a feeling of inferiority, I raising my children for many, many years. Looking back, I use shame. If they, you know, protested something I wanted them to do, or they disagreed with me, I would go for the control. And I would attack you know, you're messy, you are disrespectful, to try to push that down. And shame is useful only to a point, I became very aware of this when my girls who are students at the University turned 1415 years old, because now their brains are developing to push back against the adults in their life, right? We go from brain builders, as little kids hit adolescence. And now we're identity defenders. And they looked back at me and they said, parents shamers. All show you mom how much control you have, and the way I had been treating them. They gave it back to me.
So I had ripened this sense of payback. So really important things to understand about shame, it will deceive you into thinking it works. And then it doesn't. And we see this in the country where both sides will use shame to sort of suppress other viewpoints. And sometimes those viewpoints are within their own movement. You know, your idea contradicts the way we should be thinking about this. And sooner or later, you have to deal with the blowback. So for me, shame becomes Okay, let me first understand why I was doing this and what I was feeling in myself, I need to get clear about why I do this, but then just understand, it's not an effective tool.
Irshad Manji: And for educators who one thinks ought to know better, what we need to remind ourselves about educators is that we're humans too. And so we will fall for the temptation to shame and sometimes even humiliate and not just students, but one another. Another. Exactly. We all are aware that there's a mental health epidemic in our population in general, but especially among young people. Exactly. And one of the reasons if not the key reason for it, is that the shaming comes from so many sources, social media, fellow students, you know, friends whom we've had since childhood, who suddenly have turned on us, our own parents, and sometimes, yeah, even our professors. And what I find interesting is that on campuses, you know, the elemental virtue or value of curiosity is increasingly shut down. And How Does Learning Happen without curiosity? And the reason this comes back to shame is that if students, or anybody for that matter, is too afraid to ask a question, lest they be shamed, blamed, labeled, recorded, edited, misquoted, and then dragged on social media, right, then all that's happening is that students are playing it safe by self censoring, they are not safe. And that eats away at everybody's wholeness. And because institutions are populated by people, it eats away at the institution's integrity, which, I think is why there is so much mistrust of higher ed today. But also why but I will say it till I'm blue in the face, your choice of conflict transformation, not even just conflict resolution, conflict transformation, as a defining theme in the nascent, you know, part of your presidency is both so relevant, and also so risky. And that takes guts.
Elizabeth Cantwell: I will honestly say, it doesn't feel risky to me, as long as we as a community get on with it, that we do, learn how to do the real work that we're not just I don't know, having a kind of empty academic discussion.
Irshad Manji: Right. And it is work isn't it is where it's not it's community work exactly. Which makes it even deeper, and sometimes harder work. Because now, it's not just you, who is, you know, seeking to change or grow, you have to do it in a way in communion with others, that also permits them to grow.
Elizabeth Cantwell: Just to add a cherry on top of that cake, which is probably for a future discussion. When I think about my academic community very much like other large academic institutions, we have remote campuses all over Utah, and we have a very large online learning population. And we can't just reserve the work for one piece of our community, it has to really somehow penetrate the and give permission to engage in the work to the entire community. So for all of our listeners, any thoughts on that are incredibly important to me.
Irshad Manji: Could I add one sort of thought, before I forget, you know, listeners should know if they don't already that we've launched together, the presidential forum on conflict and conflict transformation. And my hope is that not only will you continue to bring, you know, compelling thought leaders, but that in the course of undertaking this journey with the Utah State University community, and it's a far flung community, as you just pointed out, is that we won't lose sight of the need to do do do not just talk, talk, talk, but actually learn skills of the kind that you know, Allison teaches under the banner of moral courage, and then practice, practice, practice those skills, so that they become habits so that they become embedded in the culture. And culture is a big word, we use it all the time. And there's a very simple definition for it. The definition is how we do things, or if you're going to be passive about it, how things are done, period. Right. So it's a massive undertaking, but it's eminently doable. And as we saw from launching, you know, this, this enterprise yesterday, people are excited.
Elizabeth Cantwell: They are, I'm enormously grateful for the early stage responses from my community, at least, Allison, I'm going to offer actually, for both of us, since we were sort of veering into this area, the moral courage college. And what you talked about yesterday really defines kind of a foundational set of skills. And I wonder if you could sort of help our listeners think about how do you start applying these skills in just your regular life?
Allison Gerrard: Right. I this is a great question because I can tie back to what the discussion was just a moment ago and lead us into what those skills are and what they can do after the keynote address. Yesterday, earshot and I held a q&a
Elizabeth Cantwell: And I was watching it Oh god awesome to watch the TVs way back. I mean, yeah, camera, but it was really fun to watch the interaction on. Oh, good.
Allison Gerrard: So then you might know, there was a student that came up to the microphone. And I think her question was something like, you know, it's it's great to practice these skills at home. But what does that mean for the world? You know, because there was a lot of conversation about how I use these skills with family members. And my response to her was, home is a great place to develop these skills. But really, what we want you to do is identify a problem that needs solving something in the community, something in the university community, because you can't do it all on your own as president, you're going to need people who are problem solvers and who are proactive, not waiting for you to tell everybody the plan, right? Absolutely correct. So identify a problem in your community, or relational problem, relationships are the foundation of everything, and we have a breakdown of community, people are leaving religion at increasing numbers, and they're spending more and more time in their homes. So find the problem, then use the skills of moral courage to start building the relationships you need, and to get the resources, funding the space where you are going to do this community building. And make sure you have people who disagree with you, on the bus with you. Because you're going to need people to challenge you so that you can choose the best idea don't get stuck in groupthink. That's what our brain wants. So you have to be intentional, bringing people along who will challenge you that way. Yes. So that brings us to the skills what we're trying to do is equip people to build these relationships, the ones that sometimes will feel uncomfortable, you know, and to be able to learn and listen and ask the right questions. Because
Elizabeth Cantwell: I think a lot of our listeners and in this wasn't really part of the focus yesterday, might be interested in this combination of things that you point to in your book, your side about self defense without defensiveness, but also that stream of narrative everywhere today about justice is justice. How do you achieve justice, which often carries with it a kind of a defensiveness? And I, I personally think that in my community, we, we need a new narrative, both about self defense and about justice. And I wonder if you might be able to pick that up and run with it a little bit? Sure.
Irshad Manji: So you know, I love my distinctions, right, self defense without defensiveness. Another distinction I like to make is justice, not just us. And too often today, justice is advocated by groups of people for whom the solution must work, whatever the solution is that they're proposing. And if it doesn't work for anybody else, who cares, we're the powerless ones. We demand what we demand demand. And, and once that appears, we're good. That's not justice. And it's not enduring. Because again, it doesn't take into account that different people have different experiences. And even when people within the same group have similar experiences, they will often interpret those experiences in different ways, which is why treating justice as just us may feel good, as Alison pointed out moments ago, for a second or two, and then watch the blowback. come your way. Now what? So when people say to me, Oh, your shot, you know, what you're teaching, it's great, but who so hard, and it takes a lot of, you know, personal labor, and I just don't know that I have time for that. And I asked them, Okay, do you have time for backlash? Do you have time to deal with that? And that's when the penny drops.
Elizabeth Cantwell: I'll just reiterate something you've said so much over the last two days that it isn't hard work when something becomes habit. That's right. We're used to doing workouts in order to become stronger or whatever the end result is, I think of this work as very much like you do the workouts and your muscles get stronger, and then you can, you know, jump over a fence without thinking about it.
Irshad Manji: Right. And that's the key without thinking about it. For better or for worse. The advantage of habits is that they are no brainers, right, they don't take a whole lot of energy to execute. Right, right, getting started. And practicing is the hard part. But once something becomes a habit, this is how you roll. This is your personal culture. And that's why doing the work now to make The Skills easy to deploy is so important. And moreover, remember that in moments of high emotion, which is the kind of moments we're talking about polarizing issues, our bodies, and therefore, our brains will naturally lunge for the lowest hanging fruit, meaning our habits. So it's imperative that before demanding that other people change, we do the work, of changing our habits of defensiveness, to habits of openness. And when we do that, we literally show not just tell, show others that this is possible.
Allison Gerrard: And I just want to add one thing to that you're shocked. At our time here, we've been talking about communication habits, the things you actually say and do in a conversation. Another part of moral courage is the habits of mind. So what's the mindset you go into, and a lot of emotional exhaustion can come as a result of the stories we tell about each other? We have a negativity bias, if we're ruminating on the evil of the other telling the story of how they are against you. And we're not getting curious about what we might be missing about them. Those stories we tell take up a lot of headspace. Sure.
Elizabeth Cantwell: Do. You know I call that the black hole? Because it's it's almost like irresistible, has a gravitational pull very. So is that and this might be a question for you, Allison, is that actually physiological? Well, physiological? I mean, is it ruminating? Like it's, it's digging in, somehow, physiologically, so you're, you get more positive feedback. When you do more of that,
Allison Gerrard: I do think there is a reward from ruminating and trying, because what you're trying to do is get control in your mind of the narrative of the other person, you want to settle on something that's true about them, oh, they're evil, they're selfish. You know, they're against me, that feels good. That's rewarding, because it tells the brain this person's predictable, I know what to do with them. So the trick is re train your brain to understand everybody so much more than the simple stories we tell that is freeing. Because if someone does something that you find is offensive. It's not about you being less than it's about, hmm, maybe I missed something about this interaction, I have power to go and seek more information, the brain responds to more information, it can update it stories. The problem is we don't take the step to seek the information. Like the story I told him in the keynote yesterday, my brain wanted to know Katie, my co drummer, the story of her, it caused a lot of suffering, the two days off, I was actually relieved when I saw on the recording, that the interaction didn't happen as it did. And that's another thing we need to understand about the brain, it doesn't care about our happiness, it doesn't care a lick about her happiness, it just needs to keep us alive by preserving energy.
Irshad Manji: Yeah. And you know, when we assume we know what that other person is, not who that other person is. But what the label or set of labels that we put on them, that then frees up energy to continue to survive.
Elizabeth Cantwell: So I do think that puts us at a place where it would be useful for our audience to talk about skills, because you're just describing at least my interpretation of some of the skills you talked about yesterday, really things that change the energy balance, almost in your body, which is incredibly powerful. Yeah. So you want to give us maybe two or three? I don't know.
Irshad Manji: Yeah, yeah, one of my favorites is, and this is something that most people don't even think about. When they worry that maybe there's no common ground. We always use the phrase we meaning people use the phrase, find common ground, or seek common ground. But think about that. Seeking finding takes time. And it takes energy. And what if I don't find common ground, I'm leaving it up to chance. So what we say at moral courage is be proactive, cre eight common ground from the get go. And you can do that by saying to you know that your so called other? Look, I know that we might disagree about this issue. But here's what I also know, you are so much more than this issue. So am I can we remember that about each other and simply by inviting that agreement, you are creating a rule of engagement that is common to the both of you. It also Telegraph's to the so called other that I'm not going to judge you and I hope you don't do the same to me. That's really important because research tells us that we human beings fear one thing more than death itself. And that is being judged. So let's stop that story in its tracks and get really clear that you know, here's what we do have Common, we're going to remember about one another, that were so much more each of us than just this issue.
Allison Gerrard: And for me, it's ask a sincere question. I think questions are our most valuable tools. And you know, a university, you ask lots of questions. All research is based on questions. But in a relationship, it reduces the pressure on person asking the question to have all the answers. And what you're doing is, and you can see this in the brain as well. When someone is asked a sincere question. It almost stops the storyline that's been running previous to this. And they are intent on answering this sincere question. So just to be clear, let's say you get in a conversation, and it's pretty heated. If you can just get to a sincere question, it can disrupt the heated aspect of the conversation, you can get back on track. We noticed this when we were working with the students at the Business College. Yesterday, they the students would ask us questions, but we came back and ask them even more questions, because my advice for them is not as useful as them finding the answer for themselves. So you can help people grapple with these issues that they have on their minds just by asking sincere questions, and then I learned from them.
Irshad Manji: And I'll say one other thing about all of this ether, just to have the skills, there are many more and again, people can come to moral courage.com to find out what the other skills are. But this is not just about interpersonal relationships. It's that certainly, but those interpersonal relationships can also lead to fundamental changes in policy. And so for example, one of the stories we love sharing with our audiences is, you know, we have a colleague, Genesis B is her name, and she's a hip hop artist. She is African American, and she was born and lived in Mississippi for many years. And she is a native Mississippian and felt, you know, a few years ago, passionate about replacing the Mississippi State Flag, which still featured the Confederate battle emblem with a flag that respected everybody's history, she launched an incendiary protest against Confederate heritage month from a concert stage. And of course, all of the predictable things happened, right? Somebody took a photo of her putting a noose around her neck and throwing the Confederate battle flag into the audience. And she got a ton of hate mail. And she realized, you know, all that's happening right now is, again, the polarization deepening, I need to disrupt that. And so she literally invited somebody from her social media feed, who she remembered from kindergarten, who said to her, Look, I don't want you to die for what you believe. But I severely disagree with you. Well, because he indicated that he didn't want to kill her. She thought, Okay, let me invite him to my backyard, sit around a round table and discuss this issue. And at the end of that conversation, Louis, her interlocutor, her co conversant, she asked him, Louis, some how do you feel about the fact that I launched this protest? Now remember, she asked this at the end of the conversation? And he said, You know, I was upset, obviously. And then I went from upset to under understanding exactly, to respect and I support your decision in wanting to change the flag. Now, what's interesting here is that Louis didn't say, I saw your right, right, right, the changing of the flag. But what happened was because he felt so much respect, meaning sincere questioning from Genesis, he's he was motivated to think further about what she had said, during the conversation. And he started having uncomfortable conversations with his father. He then offered up help to the new flag movement, and the best help he could offer, because it's what he knew to do was to help them defend themselves from the death threats by teaching them how to use guns, okay, and then ferry, Mississippi. Exactly. And as he worked alongside these leaders, he realized there is nothing here to fear. So he joined the movement ultimately, and the politicians, you know, in Mississippi, who wound up voting for the new flag, have gone on record to say it's because of this kind of relationship building, that they realized there was a change within their base, and that it was time now to move forward together. And I'll just finish this story off by pointing out what is so edifying about all of this is the new flag of Mississippi features two blood red bars, one on each side, indicating or honoring the blood that was spilled. by both sides during the US Civil War, in other words, we're going to recognize everyone's humanity. So you see, it wasn't about the less powerful, now gaining power and lording it over the people who were once powerful. No, that would be an either or mindset. This is about both. And, and that's the buy in, that leads to sustained solutions. So you can see that, you know, despite the skills that we teach being pretty simple. The mission is to liberate more human beings from the impulsive, either or mindset, to a much more intentional, and therefore constructive, both and paradigm.
Elizabeth Cantwell: Because I'm a researcher, I feel obligated to put the following idea on the table, because it seems to me that one of our biggest challenges is how to take these ideas and concepts, let's say common ground. And understand in the world where not everybody interacts personally, actually do the work to understand how we know when common ground has been achieved in a multimodal world, because it is upon us. And I think it's so much easier to just be flip about what you're doing. In an online world where your intention doesn't have to remain with whatever you just wrote, you can go do something else in combat, but it is with us. And it's incredibly important to figure that one out, for sure, it'll probably be our students that do that work. And that seems like multi-decadal work to me to really understand.
Irshad Manji: You're absolutely right, it is the long game, for real. And when students you know, really invest themselves in this kind of work, what they're going to realize is that it's not a burden, it's actually a gift that they're giving to themselves as much as to society, because they're now lifting the burden off of their shoulders, the pressure off their shoulders, to be right all the time, about everything, they're also setting themselves up for success. However, they define success, because as Allison pointed out, everything that's worthwhile doing, takes people to work with one another to get done. Right. So whether that's a successful marriage, whether it is a successful business, whether it is a world historic change that you are after, you cannot do it, without starting dialogue, and thereby developing buy in for the interests of those solutions. Right. So there is so much upside to beginning the workers just on yourself. And in that regard, I actually have a, you might think of it as a challenge. But I actually think of it as an invitation to all of our listeners, the next time, you are entering into a conversation where you know that you really want to get something specific out of it, and you're not sure the other person is going to cooperate. First, ask yourself this question. Am I in this to move the needle? Or am I in this to feel morally superior? And I realized the way I've just asked this sounds either or? So let me just rephrase it slightly. I'm probably in it for both. Just be honest, right? Of course, I want to feel morally superior. That is pleasurable. But yes, because I'm passionate about the issue. I'm also in it to move the needle. So the real question is, are you in it more to move the needle? or more, to feel morally superior? And be honest with yourself? You don't have to announce your answer to anybody. It's nobody else's business, just yours. And knowing that you can be brutally honest with yourself. And whatever you tell yourself will shape how you show up in that interaction.
Elizabeth Cantwell: I'm also struck by the fact that if you do that, routinely, you are always in the in this vein of future casting, you are always creating some version of self knowledge about where the needle moves to. What is that state that I desire, right. What is that future? Mean? This is such an incredible thinking process for young people who will be raising the next several generations of other young people.
Irshad Manji: If we survive, and I'm not even being flipped when I say that I really, really do believe that it's we're fast coming to a point where collectively enough of us have to make the decision that we're going to change ourselves in order, not just to survive, but ultimately to flourish and not just our species, but all sentient species.
Elizabeth Cantwell: And so this is part of the reason I brought up the how How does this work in other communication modalities? Because I believe this approach can be part of creating the social norms that have been essentially eviscerated. And that we do need that in order to survive as a species. Yeah, social norms, we need social norms. The old ones aren't working so well. Right.
That said, again, we all know shame, blame doesn't work. So we can't shame and blame people into adopting and practicing and habituating these skills as social norms, we've got to ensure that the way we frame them is positive and appealing. And so for example, when I talk to young people, which you know, Allison, and I do all the time, I point out to them, Look, if you believe something, and you also believe that more people need to hear it, remember that the most reliable way to get a fair hearing is to give one first. In other words, you're not weak for listening. And listening doesn't translate into losing. In fact, what you are doing as long as it's sincere, you're listening, what you are actually doing is setting yourself up to be heard. So there is enlightened self interest here. Be smart, don't try to defeat the things that you don't like about this world. That's again, taking a win lose approach. Instead, outsmart what you don't like about what's happening in this world, outwitted instead of indulging in the win lose game in the either or game, change the game.
I think that's such an important message for our particularly, but for people who are who are floundering, mentally, with the loose ground. I think, among other things, the IE just to listen belongs to everybody.
It's part of the agency we all have exactly. And I think you know, for anybody who's listening, they might be feeling okay, I'm on board, I'm ready to build these skills. I want you listeners to know you don't have to do this on your own moral courage offers mentoring, but it doesn't have to be us. It can be any other mentor, find someone who can hold the mirror up to you compassionately, and help you build these skills and help you move forward in a way that's more productive. We know this at moral courage that they people need the support. That's why we've created this journey where, you know, it's six to nine months long, where I interact one on one with our students, to challenge them. They challenge me, we grow together. That's what I love about mentorship, it's bi directional. It's not us saying, Hey, here's where you need to fix yourself, right? There's too much of that in the world, we need compassionate, empathic relationships, we need more mentors, people taking the time to really see the person in front of them, see their strengths, see where they're struggling, see where they might be getting in their own way. And also to reflect that back to us as mentors.
Irshad Manji: And precisely by the way, because you're not on your own, when you do this, we always ensure that, you know, our students are paired up with somebody else from their own institution or their own organization. And the parents become each other's support and accountability buddies. And even when they graduate, to become certified mentors, who can teach the skills in their own institutions and organizations, they still have one another to bounce ideas off of, to co teach, if they met meet resistance from people who you know, think that this is BS, and it's my way or the highway, they've still got one another s to come to, and confide. Here's what I'm experiencing. You know, I need your support. Can we brainstorm how how you might be able to support what I need to be doing at this moment.
Elizabeth Cantwell: So what I'm taking away from this last bit of conversation is that at Utah State University, we have the opportunity to kind of create our own living learning community around moral courage. So for those of you that are listening from my community, let's generate some ideas about how to credibly do that for ourselves. And all the components of our community, including the place we play says that we live the community members who are not in our institution, but are part of the world that we live in. I'm going to wrap it up now. I can't tell you how invigorating it is for me to have a discussion about this. You know, I think it's unique to me, but speaks directly to my sense of how do I lead this incredible group of people in this incredible state to drive for themselves the future. So thank you for that. Any any last words here we were really about at time.
Allison Gerrard: I just I enjoyed my time. Thank you for inviting us up here. Your students are amazing. I've connected with many. They've already emailed me. So we're going to continue the conversation. Love it. Yeah. So thank you fabulous.
Irshad Manji: And let me just say for what it's worth, look, you know, I have lived all over the world. And I really do find something unique, special and in the word of Governor Cox, weird about Utah, and good weird, positively weird. And so I'd like to believe President Cantwell that this is a state from which the both and can really grow into something Nash. Yes. And I agree it radiates from Utah. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell: So hear that my Utah friends. It's a challenge for us. Blessings to everybody. Thank you so much for joining me. This is the end of our podcast and we look forward to talking to you at the next one. Thanks, everyone.
Future Casting with Utah State is a production of Utah Public Radio and Utah State University sponsored by the Office of the President. Thanks to Rob Pat, Chris Nelson, Teresa Keel, Justin Warnick, the USU Marketing and Communications team and producer Hannah Castro.
